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	<title>Comments on: No Thanks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/</link>
	<description>Logorrhea in blog form; a place to spill my brain</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22273</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22273</guid>
		<description>Welcome back, although you&#039;re a little late to the party!  The booze ran out and I turned off the lights a month ago!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome back, although you&#8217;re a little late to the party!  The booze ran out and I turned off the lights a month ago!</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Moya</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22271</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Moya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22271</guid>
		<description>I am sorry I don&#039;t check this blog more often.  Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry I don&#8217;t check this blog more often.  Good stuff.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22109</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22109</guid>
		<description>But perhaps more entertaining?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But perhaps more entertaining?</p>
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		<title>By: GLW Johnson</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22108</link>
		<dc:creator>GLW Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22108</guid>
		<description>Guys
 The FV is about as relevent as the hoola-hoop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys<br />
 The FV is about as relevent as the hoola-hoop.</p>
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		<title>By: Echo_ohcE</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22092</link>
		<dc:creator>Echo_ohcE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22092</guid>
		<description>Ron,

I wouldn&#039;t laugh if I didn&#039;t have a reason.

Juvenile: that&#039;s an interesting word. The theological ideas you espouse are aptly described in this way, and responded to in kind.

E</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron,</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t laugh if I didn&#8217;t have a reason.</p>
<p>Juvenile: that&#8217;s an interesting word. The theological ideas you espouse are aptly described in this way, and responded to in kind.</p>
<p>E</p>
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		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22091</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22091</guid>
		<description>Back to the meat -- so much to choose from here, it&#039;s like a Brazilian BBQ!
&lt;blockquote&gt;You are equivocating on “works” here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
How can that be, when you&#039;re the one who is always pushing for winning favor through good works of personal obedience to the moral law, but whenever Paul discounts &quot;works&quot; you duck behind ceremonial works.

&lt;blockquote&gt;But their *entrance* to the land was based on grace. How could their *continuance* be based on works?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Because God said so.  Isn&#039;t that what you covenantal nomists are all about: get in by grace, stay in by works?  Same with Adam, who was brought into covenant by virtue of God&#039;s voluntary condescension, but only remained in covenant while he was perfectly, personally, and entirely obedient.  Not the same with Christ, because, being the eternal Son of God, there was never a beginning cause for God&#039;s favor; never a transition from non-favor into favor.  Christ&#039;s perfect works and God&#039;s favor are as co-eternal as the Trinity itself. (Although the favor is logically (if not chronologically) consequent to the merit)

&lt;blockquote&gt;But the confession says it wasn’t, so no, I am not forced to admit anything.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s called pitting the confessions against the scriptures.  If your understanding of the confessions is correct, then Rom 11:6 is wrong.  Rom 11:6 clearly makes works and grace exclusive.  So either it&#039;s talking about Israel&#039;s works &quot;of the law&quot;, or it&#039;s talking about good works of personal obedience to moral law.  (Or you come up with some other alternatives)

If the former, then the Jews were justified (or at least &quot;chosen&quot;) by their rote obedience to ceremonial laws.  If the latter, then perhaps the Israelites obtained/retained God&#039;s favor with personal obedience, but that works-based-covenant is in effect &lt;i&gt;no longer&lt;/i&gt;.  I don&#039;t think you are happy with either of those outcomes.

It makes much more sense to understand Rom 11:6 just generally about covenants, rather than about the mosaic covenant specifically.  Bottom-line, your system cannot hold Rom 11:6 because you force yourself to have both works and grace principles operating all the time, and the whole point of Rom 11:6 is to make them exclusive, not coincident.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Christ fits into 4:5. Why is that so hard, because Jesus never sinned?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Because he did work, and because of his work, God was obliged to reward him.  John 17.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;But He was made sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), and God justified Him (1 Tim 3:16).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Nonsense!   When Christ was made sin for us, God the Just didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;justify&lt;/i&gt; that sin, he &lt;i&gt;punished&lt;/i&gt; it; and when God the Justifier vindicated Christ, he was not vindicating our sin, he was vindicating Christ&#039;s own personal obedience.  Man!  It&#039;s not enough for you to conflate works and grace, now you have to conflate good works and wicked works?

&lt;blockquote&gt;We have been through this before as well. You will never find Paul talking about justification by faith apart from works outside the context of Jew/Gentile conflict.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And I have rejected that thesis before as well.  There is no stronger statement of justification by faith apart from works than Eph 2:8-9, and the only references to Jew/Gentile relationship are not to conflict present in the Ephesian church, but as of a problem already solved.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Jesus didn’t think His historical relationship to Abraham was sufficient to remain in God’s favor&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Of course he didn&#039;t; but he did think the perfect completion of his assigned labors was sufficient to obligate his Father to pay the reward that the Trinity had agreed upon from all eternity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to the meat &#8212; so much to choose from here, it&#8217;s like a Brazilian BBQ!</p>
<blockquote><p>You are equivocating on “works” here.</p></blockquote>
<p>How can that be, when you&#8217;re the one who is always pushing for winning favor through good works of personal obedience to the moral law, but whenever Paul discounts &#8220;works&#8221; you duck behind ceremonial works.</p>
<blockquote><p>But their *entrance* to the land was based on grace. How could their *continuance* be based on works?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because God said so.  Isn&#8217;t that what you covenantal nomists are all about: get in by grace, stay in by works?  Same with Adam, who was brought into covenant by virtue of God&#8217;s voluntary condescension, but only remained in covenant while he was perfectly, personally, and entirely obedient.  Not the same with Christ, because, being the eternal Son of God, there was never a beginning cause for God&#8217;s favor; never a transition from non-favor into favor.  Christ&#8217;s perfect works and God&#8217;s favor are as co-eternal as the Trinity itself. (Although the favor is logically (if not chronologically) consequent to the merit)</p>
<blockquote><p>But the confession says it wasn’t, so no, I am not forced to admit anything.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s called pitting the confessions against the scriptures.  If your understanding of the confessions is correct, then Rom 11:6 is wrong.  Rom 11:6 clearly makes works and grace exclusive.  So either it&#8217;s talking about Israel&#8217;s works &#8220;of the law&#8221;, or it&#8217;s talking about good works of personal obedience to moral law.  (Or you come up with some other alternatives)</p>
<p>If the former, then the Jews were justified (or at least &#8220;chosen&#8221;) by their rote obedience to ceremonial laws.  If the latter, then perhaps the Israelites obtained/retained God&#8217;s favor with personal obedience, but that works-based-covenant is in effect <i>no longer</i>.  I don&#8217;t think you are happy with either of those outcomes.</p>
<p>It makes much more sense to understand Rom 11:6 just generally about covenants, rather than about the mosaic covenant specifically.  Bottom-line, your system cannot hold Rom 11:6 because you force yourself to have both works and grace principles operating all the time, and the whole point of Rom 11:6 is to make them exclusive, not coincident.</p>
<blockquote><p>Christ fits into 4:5. Why is that so hard, because Jesus never sinned?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because he did work, and because of his work, God was obliged to reward him.  John 17.  </p>
<blockquote><p>But He was made sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), and God justified Him (1 Tim 3:16).</p></blockquote>
<p>Nonsense!   When Christ was made sin for us, God the Just didn&#8217;t <i>justify</i> that sin, he <i>punished</i> it; and when God the Justifier vindicated Christ, he was not vindicating our sin, he was vindicating Christ&#8217;s own personal obedience.  Man!  It&#8217;s not enough for you to conflate works and grace, now you have to conflate good works and wicked works?</p>
<blockquote><p>We have been through this before as well. You will never find Paul talking about justification by faith apart from works outside the context of Jew/Gentile conflict.</p></blockquote>
<p>And I have rejected that thesis before as well.  There is no stronger statement of justification by faith apart from works than Eph 2:8-9, and the only references to Jew/Gentile relationship are not to conflict present in the Ephesian church, but as of a problem already solved.</p>
<blockquote><p>Jesus didn’t think His historical relationship to Abraham was sufficient to remain in God’s favor</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course he didn&#8217;t; but he did think the perfect completion of his assigned labors was sufficient to obligate his Father to pay the reward that the Trinity had agreed upon from all eternity.</p>
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		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22090</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22090</guid>
		<description>And personally, I find it grotesque that you would compare the gift of justification by grace alone through faith alone, to whatever it means for us to &quot;win&quot; favor from God by our personal obedience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And personally, I find it grotesque that you would compare the gift of justification by grace alone through faith alone, to whatever it means for us to &#8220;win&#8221; favor from God by our personal obedience.</p>
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		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22089</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22089</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I find it grotesque that you would compare my view of the relationship between us and God with the relationship between a prostitute and her john. You do realize that your analogy put our Holy God in the place of the one paying for sex, don’t you.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Do you find it more or less grotesque than putting our Holy God in the place of &lt;a href=&quot;http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/the-puzo-hermeneutic/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;someone who pays for murder&lt;/a&gt;?  Which adds another analogy to the pile: &quot;Sir, did you pay for that hit?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I find it grotesque that you would compare my view of the relationship between us and God with the relationship between a prostitute and her john. You do realize that your analogy put our Holy God in the place of the one paying for sex, don’t you.</p></blockquote>
<p>Do you find it more or less grotesque than putting our Holy God in the place of <a href="http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/the-puzo-hermeneutic/" rel="nofollow">someone who pays for murder</a>?  Which adds another analogy to the pile: &#8220;Sir, did you pay for that hit?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22088</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22088</guid>
		<description>FWIW, the point of the analogy is to highlight your evasiveness on the point of whether a &quot;reward&quot; is a payment or a gift.  You can easily write analogous analogies, like &quot;Sir, are you paying that child to work in your sweatshop?&quot;  Or &quot;Sir, are you bribing that judge?&quot;  Or &quot;Sir, are you purchasing that congressman&#039;s vote?&quot;  

The point is, there is a difference between a merited reward (Rom 4:4) and a gift (Rom 4:5); between works and grace (Rom 11:6); sometimes God operates in the former mode (Covenant of Works), and sometimes in the latter (Covenant of Grace), but your agenda compels you to fudge that distinction, just like the john, or the sweatshopper, or the briber, or the lobbyist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, the point of the analogy is to highlight your evasiveness on the point of whether a &#8220;reward&#8221; is a payment or a gift.  You can easily write analogous analogies, like &#8220;Sir, are you paying that child to work in your sweatshop?&#8221;  Or &#8220;Sir, are you bribing that judge?&#8221;  Or &#8220;Sir, are you purchasing that congressman&#8217;s vote?&#8221;  </p>
<p>The point is, there is a difference between a merited reward (Rom 4:4) and a gift (Rom 4:5); between works and grace (Rom 11:6); sometimes God operates in the former mode (Covenant of Works), and sometimes in the latter (Covenant of Grace), but your agenda compels you to fudge that distinction, just like the john, or the sweatshopper, or the briber, or the lobbyist.</p>
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		<title>By: RubeRad</title>
		<link>http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/no-thanks/#comment-22087</link>
		<dc:creator>RubeRad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ruberad.wordpress.com/?p=447#comment-22087</guid>
		<description>Wow, Ron, you are getting so strained and desperate!  I would pay $7 a head for the men of our church to just listen to you and I read this transcript!  You wanna go halvsies with me?  I think I might be able to pull some strings so we could be the undercard for H&amp;S: Baptiterian on Oct 4...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Ron, you are getting so strained and desperate!  I would pay $7 a head for the men of our church to just listen to you and I read this transcript!  You wanna go halvsies with me?  I think I might be able to pull some strings so we could be the undercard for H&amp;S: Baptiterian on Oct 4&#8230;</p>
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