Hoagies & Stogies: Ordination of Women MP3

Come and get it! .mp3 for the Hoagies & Stogies: Ordination of Women is downloadable here:

  • Part 1: Openings, Rebuttals, Closings (10MB, 57:25)
  • Part 2: Audience Q&A (8MB, 45:41)

Drop a comment here when you’ve listened (or if you were there) — let me know what you think!

(And while you’re downloading fresh theological debate .mp3s, head on over here to pick up last night’s Paedo-/Credobaptist debate — I heard it was a barn burner!)

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11 Responses

  1. The first review of the debate is over here

  2. I just listened to the debate mp3 and was NOT impressed with Dr. Scorge. His entire opening statement was a meandering, wandering speech that appealed very little to the Bible, instead appealing to culture and our emotions at poor women whose gifts and abilities are underappreciated by patricarchial villians.

    To be consistent, I have always said, “Let Paul be Paul”, so I must register my profound disappointment in Dr. Scorgie’s complete rewriting and reinterpreting Paul’s direct and clear statemts — “This is what Paul was trying to say, unfortunately encumbered by the predominant patriarchical culture of his day.” — What utter nonsense! Paul said exactly what he meant to say, even appealing back to the creation! I could just picture Paul himself, watching Dr. Scorgie from heaven, shaking his beard and saying, “What in the world are you talking about?”

    And he had ZERO answers for all the New Testament instructions for wives and husbands found in Ephesians 5 and I Peter 3, other than some nebulous “trajectory of the Spirit” smoke and mirrors.

    So, let me get this straight. Any instruction of Paul’s for marriage or the family can be retooled and turned on its head to say something entirely different based on my conception of the dominant culture in the early church?

    His best point was the one about the New Testament urging slaves to obey their masters, but he failed to connect that to God’s order for the home. Why would God set up one set of headship rules for the home, only to turn them on their head in the church?

    A few questions about how far to stretch the “women are to keep silent in the church” command. Philip had 7 daughters that prophesied. Did they do that prophesying in the church? And when talking about head coverings for women, Paul talks about them praying. So can’t we safely assume here that his instruction about keeping silent is limited to preaching and teaching, because the context mentions authority.

    Anyway, enjoyed the debate, but all Pastor Brian had to do, in the end, was simply read Paul’s words and pit Professor Scorgie against the Apostle Paul again and again, and Dr. Scorgie was left holding his jock.

    An excellent book, that I have in my library, is John Piper and Wayne Grudem’s “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Femenism”. You can find huge chunks of excerpts here.

  3. I absolutely agree with you that Scorgie’s “Trajectory of the Spirit” concept is all wet. He said it’s not like picking an arbitrary destination and saying “that’s where the Spirit is headed”, but looking in the Bible, finding a pattern “2,4,6,8,…”, and concluding “10!”.

    What I wish I had asked (although he said that during Q&A, so all the Q were already submitted at that point) is: how do you know that the trajectory is not supposed to continue to 12, or 14, or 16…? Why don’t you assume that, if you see a trajectory, the endpoint of trajectory is revealed in scripture (i.e. the Spirit’s destination was 8 all along!) What ever happened to “the same, yesterday, today, and forever”?

  4. I also thought it was extremely dubious that he continually resorted to his “homiletical” argument. So instead of “we know that God is head of Christ, and we know that Christ is head of man, thus we see illustrated that a man must be the head of his wife”, he calls it a “homiletical illustration”, and flips it around to “in our current patriarchal culture, we all know that a man is the head of his wife; thus you know what I’m talking about when I say that Christ is the head of man, and God is the head of Christ”.

    It just sucks all the power out of the Word to use it like that. Like he says, that kind of hermeneutic makes the Bible a “worthless document”.

  5. […] can hear the whole thing once RubeRad makes the mp3s […]

  6. Thanks again, gentlemen, for the opportunity to present to a great group of brothers in Christ the other night a way of understanding the intent of Holy Scripture on gender that obviously differs from that of most, if not all, who attended.

    I have since told quite a few people, many of whom had warned me earlier that I might not be treated very well, that in fact you had all been most gracious and discussed the issues at a high level of biblical knowledge and reasoning. Thank you! Whenever we have encounters of this kind, the image of the PCA rises in other people’s minds, and more importantly, our Lord is glorified.

    Obviously much more time than the 2 hours we had together would be necessary to cover all the important aspects and biblical texts related to the issue. More time would be needed even to explain clearly the positions I summarized in short sentences and bullet points.

    Nevertheless, I am not going to engage in responding to specific reactions posted to this site, because I’ve already spent well over a year thinking out my answers to these questions and writing them up in my book on the topic. Think of me personally as you will, but I humbly request that you reference that source [The Journey Back to Eden (Zondervan, 2006)]before dismissing my interpretation as totally idiotic or dishonoring to the Lord and his Word.

    Blessings, Glen Scorgie

  7. Doc Scorgie,

    Did not know that you would be checking in here, or I would have tempered my words quite a bit. I hope you understand the casual and sometimes sarcastic tone that we take in blogs at times that we would never take in person or at a formal debate. Please forgive any disrespect.

    Albino

  8. Albino,
    Somehow I stumbled across this page. I know nothing about the background of this discussion, however, I thought that I would point out a typo. While skimming the comments I noted that you mentioned Philip’s 7 prophesying daughters. I’m sure that your finger just slipped when you were meaning to press 4 on the keypad (Acts 21:9).
    Anyways, just thought I would mention it. Good to see other believers interacting with the Scriptures and seeking to know God and His will through them. God bless.

    Steve

  9. Hi Steve,

    I stand corrected.

  10. Seven Brides for Seven Brothers Maybe Philip’s daughters would like to meet the seven sons of Sceva

  11. Those first 7 deacons also needed brides.

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